Ukraine

Speaker 1

Can Russia even target courts?

Speaker 2

Aim then with diavom, they want, or it's not them, then aim with diavom. Then diav launch tyraken. If

Speaker 3

wouldn't be Zelenskyy,

Speaker 4

…then there would be no war. Ukraine is generally like a testing ground for America. America does all of this, according to the husband.

Speaker 1

In Kyiv, they say that the Lavra might be closed entirely, they will take it to court. Have you heard that this is possible?

Speaker 5

I've heard that, and we won't give it.

Speaker 1

to

Speaker 2

Regard Putin? Of course. He is our ruler. Putin?

Speaker 1

Both the Most Holy Patriarch and Putin. The last time we were at the Pochaev Lavra was three years ago. At that time, the reason for the trip was a resolution registered in the Verkhovna Rada by five people's deputies demanding that the Cabinet of Ministers terminate the lease agreement for the buildings of the Pochaev Lavra with the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate.

Speaker 2

The Lord will not allow the family knife in the hands. But here there will then be Orthodox-church-Ukrainian care. It will not be here. The Mother of God will not allow it.

Speaker 1

In the explanatory note to the draft resolution, the authors called the lavra a source of the Russian World on the territory of the stavropygion monastery, an outpost of anti-Ukrainian forces, and a center of interconfessional confrontation and strife.

Speaker 2

You are servants of the devil. You are not people of God. You are servants of the devil.

Speaker 1

As a reminder, the Pochaiv Lavra was transferred to the UOC-MP on a free lease for 49 years back during the government of Prime Minister Yanukovych. That is, it remains in effect until 2052. And a bill to terminate this agreement, initiated three years ago, has still not been considered in parliament. So we have returned to Pochaiv again. Now for a new reason. The state announced its intention to resolve the issue of the UOC's presence in the lavra through the court. The reason is its affiliation with the Russian Orthodox Church.

Speaker 1

It has been a month since the State Commission on Ethnopolicy and Freedom of Conscience gave the Holy Dormition Pochayiv Lavra a notice to remove ties with the Russian Orthodox Church. If they are not removed, the commission plans to sue to stop the activities of the Lavra. We came to the Ternopil region to ask people what they think about such prospects and generally to find out how to resolve the situation around the Lavra and why this resolution is being stalled. Here, some passers-by even forbid filming, fearing they will appear on camera. I recall that in a Ukrainian monastery I was making a video where they told me that the phone was taken away.

Speaker 2

He has mobiles, all sorts of electronics, all his, forest stuff. Lord, you see, the whole world. And electronics, all that, it's devilish.

Speaker 1

Based on the results of the state inspection, at least two arguments prove the connection of the Pochaiv Lavra with the Russian Church. First, it is part of the Kyiv Metropolis of the UOC, which was previously recognized as affiliated with the ROC. Second, the administrator of the Pochaiv Lavra, Metropolitan Volodymyr Moroz, is a member of the episcopal council of the Russian Orthodox Church. Therefore, according to the order of the State Commission, he must withdraw from the statutory governing bodies of the ROC, and the lavra itself must withdraw from the Kyiv Metropolis of the UOC.

Speaker 2

After our still to tragic antiquity we

Speaker 1

we decide to go inside the Lavra without video equipment this time, because, for example, this Dormition Cathedral,

Speaker 2

then by the power that to us

Speaker 1

insisted on entering inside, although before that we were allowed to film after the service, and we went after the service. Also, local children were set upon us, who grabbed our lens.

Speaker 2

We behaved well. And

Speaker 1

Who allowed you to hit the camera with a pen?

Speaker 2

That's it, goodbye. That's how you film, and then you twist everything. Because whoever does everything wrong, he shackles him.

Speaker 1

And, eventually, a few days after the release of the story, the Pochaiv Lavra made a translation of our reporter's statement, where they accused us of bringing actors, and that these were fake people we wrote. And they urged the believers not to succumb to our provocations, meaning the journalists. So all of us, as it is now a holiday, we will not provoke anyone on the territory of the Lavra. We'll try outside its boundaries. I'm joking.

Speaker 8

Most likely, this is another coordinated effort aimed at provoking citizens and disrupting the stability of our state, which is already damaged by the war. Be vigilant and cautious, and let us not give in to provocations.

Speaker 1

And where did you come from specifically to the holy Lavra? Have you heard that in Kyiv, the state commission "Stand of Ethnopolitics and Freedom of Conscience" says it will sue the Lavra because it did not break…

Speaker 2

I don't get involved in politics. I know only God, the church. Politics is no longer in my hands.

Speaker 1

And do you go to the lavra? I do. And as for what they say in Kyiv, that it is connected to the ROC, how is that perceived here?

Speaker 9

I don't see any connection.

Speaker 1

There are no pro-Russian views, nothing like that? None

Speaker 10

rations in Russian, I don't see anything.

Speaker 7

The shrine is a luxury shrine. It protects all of us here. Everyone? The shrine, yes. But, you see, they are picking on this shrine.

Speaker 1

And why do you think they're taking offense?

Speaker 7

For some reason, everyone dislikes it.

Speaker 1

How do you think it's even possible to stop the diagnosis?

Speaker 7

Whatever, like a second one.

Speaker 9

You know, we, I told you, we are not politicians. And this matter we, how should I put it, don't get into and don't control.

Speaker 1

What if they still try to transport to the PCU?

Speaker 9

I don't mind.

Speaker 1

Will you be going?

Speaker 9

Of course.

Speaker 1

Is it not a matter of principle for you?

Speaker 9

It doesn't matter. God is one for everyone.

Speaker 7

Tell them there in Kyiv, tell them not to worry, the war is going on, that they will still have people here. Just say it like that, he said, there in Kyiv, the middle one.

Speaker 1

Mantsina, will you dissolve the battle site?

Speaker 7

Yes. A dream, still among themselves, of people beating.

Speaker 1

Have you heard that in Kyiv they say that they will sue the Lavra to stop its activities, because it did not sever ties with

Speaker 2

in Russian. You know, the devil, he is not a specialist, he confuses. The devil, our faith, because he was given to the forefather. There is no motion of it. You return him, transport him, me too and the mother's relief. That is a great bend, those are the fulfilled prophets. It is not allowed. An inner sin, which was to overstrain that, I am Mr. Nivdom. Nivdomovits are not forgiven. A very terrible sin.

Speaker 1

And please tell me, what do you think about the fact that Kyiv says it will sue the Lavra to stop its activities?

Speaker 3

Yes, it will be. A war is going on over Orthodoxy. And why? They want to destroy Orthodoxy, so that these churches are closed, freedoms are closed and the Mtsensk mudske monastery is closed, so that there is none in Ukraine. You weren't yet Zelenskys, but Karyla, Stepan. There was no war. Why? I am fighting. And what, America simply, Europe simply. You know, I am fighting. And those moneys, some go to weaponry, and some go to living expenses. And there, you know, the pension into living expenses.

Speaker 1

The territory of the Pochaiv Lavra covers 12 hectares. Legally, the state is the owner of the land and property. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church is only a user here. But in fact, it behaves here as a full owner. And when representatives of state government bodies, such as the SBU for searches or the Ministry of Culture to conduct an inventory, attempt to enter, they are met with maximum resistance. In 2025, searches took place at the Pochaiv Lavra in a criminal proceeding regarding fraud on an especially large scale. Specifically, it concerned the illegal transfer of the All Saints Church from state to private ownership.

Speaker 11

Representatives of the Moscow Patriarchate are acting in a classic manner, involving minors, as well as elderly grandmothers and very young children, to obstruct.

Speaker 1

And previously, the SBU came here vigorously with searches in a case of inciting national enmity and hatred. The basis was a publication on the monastery's website, in which the authors insulted its ideas and generally believers of other denominations, except for the UOC. In the same post, clergy questioned the existence of Ukraine as a sovereign state separate from Russia. Moreover, in 2023, one of the novices of the Pochaiv Lavra had already been convicted for justifying Russian aggression. The tenants of the lavra also obstructed the inventory process, which was conducted by the Commission of the Ministry of Culture in 2004-2025. The Ministry of Culture is the owner of the national heritage sites on the territory of the lavra, and the balance holder is the Kyiv Pochaiv State Historical and Architectural Reserve, whose directorate we asked about what violations they had found there.

Speaker 11

There were several such cases. Not of access, and this is a gross violation, it seems, clause 3.6 of their 49-year use agreement. In any agreement, the tenant is obliged to grant access to the owner. These are Troitsky, Arkhiyereisky, Monastyrska Keliyi, Uspensky. The passport was compiled in 2014. Artworks that were present at that moment are listed here. During the inventory, regarding the issue of movable art objects, we did not find this particular work. Angel Purifies Saint Onuphrius. This is an icon from the beginning of the 19th century, from 1807. Now we have not found it, nor have we found several other icons. They cannot explain where they went. They say they were not there. "You've made something up." How could they not be there, when the passport was compiled.

Speaker 1

In the Pochaiv Lavra, the inventory process itself was previously called illegal. Allegedly, the state never officially transferred to the monastery part of the church property that they are trying to inventory, but it had always been the property of the church monastery.

Speaker 12

On the territory of the Pochaiv Lavra, besides a chick coop, a pigsty, and a dance club, for the employees of the neuropsychiatric hospital

Speaker 9

and

Speaker 12

built by the state,

Speaker 9

There was nothing.

Speaker 12

We do not consent to the illegal inventory because it is not an inventory, but in the literal sense of the word—hybrid expropriation and confiscation. Even the communist Soviet government did not commit such vandalism and humiliation of the religious beliefs of the monks of the Pochaev Lavra.

Speaker 11

This blackened gallery, where the royal family is depicted, about which we also contacted law enforcement agencies, those paintings were not there, there were bare walls in places, here we see the gallery.

Speaker 1

And here

Speaker 11

Then this image of the tsarist family appeared; it is not in the passport, but these works they are carrying out with paintings must also be approved by the ministry, because these are nonetheless restoration and repair works. Not a single project was provided to us; no approvals were provided to us. And there are dozens of such cases of law violations. Second, besides these facts, we recorded mass construction on the territory of the monument, which has not been approved by anyone. These are utility buildings, mills, sawmills, who knows what, and investigations are also being conducted regarding these facts. There is an order from the Ministry of Culture regarding the removal of additions to the monument. There are many, many, many gross violations. There are reconstructions there. For example, in the archbishop's house or other cells. They tore down walls there. They cut a passage through the wall for themselves, which was also not approved. And there are many discrepancies with the technical documentation. And now, recent events, that they began repairing the facade of the Assumption Cathedral—perhaps you have seen it too, it is currently dragging on, they have an order. They write that they are conducting research on the destructive state of the walls, but in reality, they were knocking off the moldings with jackhammers and are puttying and plastering something there. Summarizing the findings of these two commissions, we have gathered a full folder of those materials, and we are forced to react somehow. That is, we turned to the regional prosecutor's office back in October last year, specifically so that the prosecutor's office would represent and protect the state's interests in court and prepare a motion to terminate the tenants' lease agreement.

Speaker 1

But even if there is a court decision, how do you let [it/them] through,

Speaker 1

will they come out? Will they hand it over so easily, will they agree to

Speaker 11

this? Well, nothing will be easy, it never will be. I think it won't be for nothing.

Speaker 1

In Kyiv, they say that they might close the lavra altogether, they will file a lawsuit. Have you heard that they might?

Speaker 5

I heard such a thing, but we won't give.

Speaker 1

How can they harm this?

Speaker 5

Religion should not be prohibited by the constitution. And we will not let the Lavra be closed.

Speaker 1

And if they transfer it to the OCU, will you come here?

Speaker 5

They report, and we will go to pray.

Speaker 13

If they go to patriarchates, then yes. But if they go to God, to pray, they can do so here. You

Speaker 1

Do you go to church?

Speaker 13

I go to

Speaker 1

God. Do you care what the patriarchy is like there?

Speaker 13

To me absolutely.

Speaker 1

So, if she converts to another denomination, will you start going again? No,

Speaker 13

I was born here anyway, I walked and walked to

Speaker 10

You understand, it shouldn't be a DIY job.

Speaker 1

That you agree, that what the commission asserts, that there are some ties with the ROC? No

Speaker 10

I agree. I disagree. But it is not in my power. It is to make five canvases of something. To make five of one's own on one's own.

Speaker 1

Are you from Odesa? Are you from Odesa itself? The Barzhansky cathedral was once shelled,

Speaker 1

And what should be done so that Russia does not shell our cathedrals?

Speaker 3

Russia did not shell. Change the head and it will not shoot.

Speaker 1

So, if we change Zelenskyy, Russia will not shoot at cathedrals

Speaker 3

will be. And he will not shoot. He benefits from the war. A fool's friend destroys. How is this acceptable?

Speaker 1

But they are hitting our churches.

Speaker 3

When it was Triune Rus, Great Russia, Belarus, Little Russia, Triune Union, Orthodox, Slavs. What did we say to one another? The lands were Orthodox, and we got along normally. There was Ukraine, they asked to join Russia. 300 years, in 1957 it was 300 years. That day Ukraine [joined] Russia. Russia accepted, nurtured, fed a viper. And now it is fighting now. What is better? To fight or to trade? To trade. I remember, there was Russia. I was young. We go to Russia, and we were brothers there.

Speaker 3

We take eggs, a piece, lard, and a bit there. Residents. Went there, sold them. And just like that, they were gone. And we buy from there. There are good boots there. For the boys to wear here. Kirza boots. Well and there and… There is also black caviar, red caviar, and mushrooms.

Speaker 3

that roads exist. Better a small peace, and a greater war for all.

Speaker 1

Can Russia even aim here?

Speaker 2

You know, the whole thing is the devil. That is, they, they are the whole devil. That is, the devil has seized the world, you see, he was unraveling, the devil rules the whole world. The Lord keeps His on His fingers. And the devil has seized and rules the whole world.

Speaker 1

You have not just Russian missiles, but devilish missiles.

Speaker 2

Devilish missiles, it is the devil who launches those missiles. Because Russia was seized. Not they, but the devil, he controls everything. Because the devil has seized the world. Now, you understand, faith in the Lord has weakened. If it continues to weaken, the more the devil will rule the world. The more faith in the Lord weakens, the more the Lord will punish us. And here he will punish in all various measures. With floods, and storms, and warriors, and earthquakes, in all kinds of ways he would punish.

Speaker 1

Not only the buildings of the Lavra are leased by the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. In 2014, the Pochaiv City Council granted the religious community the right to free and indefinite use of the land. Before that, these plots were illegally re-registered from state to communal. Now, through the Economic Court of Kyiv, the state is trying to recover these lands. But the judicial process is being artificially disrupted.

Speaker 14

Want some?

Speaker 14

Present. Maybe I'll shout to you in this.

Speaker 4

This

Speaker 14

not the only folder

Speaker 4

by…

Speaker 14

Regarding the Lavra. One of these 12 hectares. This is a working document, let's say, we were defining. Land plots are marked here. There are 8 plots within the boundaries.

Speaker 1

These 12 hectares, excuse me. Until 2010 they were state-owned. When did the Pochaiv city council transfer them for use?

Speaker 14

It's not all that simple there. A very ingenious scheme was used there regarding how to privatize this land through the city council. As far as I know, a criminal case has been opened regarding this, and that's the kind of scheme it is. And they register these land plots as communal property. It doesn't matter that there are state buildings there. No one cares. And the city council is equally indifferent. The city council approves this for itself. It is clear that there are certain…

Speaker 1

And then the city… is passed in the lavra

Speaker 14

Constant use.

Speaker 1

That is, the Pochaiv City Council transferred…

Speaker 14

Constant

Speaker 1

usage. This is in

Speaker 14

It was in 2010. And in 2014, the city council registers

Speaker 1

ownership to oneself.

Speaker 1

did these eyes remain? Yanukovych was already president there. But

Speaker 14

I wouldn't say that I closed my eyes. I didn't even know about this while in Kyiv.

Speaker 1

So that their land would be taken…

Speaker 14

Yes, it was very simple. So at the local level they simply took for themselves, seized the land. Including 12 hectares.

Speaker 1

And how can they be returned now? Now there is a criminal proceeding…

Speaker 14

Criminal proceedings, unfortunately, have been a concept since years ago. To put it frankly, this happened a long time ago. And currently, cooperation with the prosecutor's office has been prepared. And the prosecutor's office has filed a lawsuit on behalf of the state against the Povchayska City Council.

Speaker 14

that the land plot fell into their illegal possession. Well, this is illegal possession. And to return it from their illegal possession. And to return it to state ownership. At this time, this lawsuit is being considered in the economic court of the city of Kyiv.

Speaker 15

And at the present time by a religious organization

Speaker 14

Genius moves are being made just to drag out this process. That is, they are filed by completely different third parties. Three counter-episodes. And in this way, they are dragging out this case.

Speaker 1

Verechi, the Proborzhansky Cathedral, which is so majestic behind us, where a service is currently taking place, is private property. Because it is not a historical building. And construction began back in 2011, during Yanukovych's time. The situation is strange. The land is state-owned, but on it are private property objects. And what to do next?

Speaker 11

It is completely illegal. Let's start with that. It is illegal, firstly, it is fully built. There is only preliminary approval there, but as for construction permits, we…

Speaker 15

We didn't see the end.

Speaker 11

It spoils the overall picture. There is a dominant structure. A complex. There is a dominant structure, the Assumption Cathedral. Even the Trinity Cathedral, which is now built here, has already spoiled the complex. It does not fit into the architectural ensemble. And now they are building some monster, which spoils everything altogether. It draws attention away from the national monument to itself, to a new building. Outsiders who visit do not know what is a monument and what is not. They immediately go there because it is beautiful, it is shiny, it is all in mosaics and it is large.

Speaker 14

Look, they registered ownership for about 30-40 buildings. For this building, for this building they registered ownership, for this one, for this one… That is, Spanish

Speaker 1

Does the cathedral not have ownership rights?

Speaker 14

Yes. They registered some buildings from the lower utility courtyard; on the upper utility courtyard, those which are adjacent, which according to the Soviet-period inventory were part of the cells. That is, they could not be separated, if, let's say, you are walking through the cells, right here. Bam, you've stepped here and you didn't even realize that you've entered this building. And they say, these are already ours, because we have the right of ownership.

Speaker 1

Do you want to sue the lavra?

Speaker 4

I know firsthand, it's all such that they will take part of the Lavra, the Trinity Cathedral. The Assumption will remain with the plaintiff.

Speaker 1

In the lawsuit, is it meant in the event that Uspensky remains with the OPC, and the OCU takes Troitsky to give back? Will you accept it if one church is under the OCU and the second is under the OPC, to you

Speaker 4

will it not be? I don't think people will put up with it. It is the truth, I would… And now all all the movements that are in the world, like that one towards war, one, two, it's all on a spiritual basis. And why? It's not so much political, it's a spiritual basis. It's just that everything is spoken for you, it's broadcast from the box. And on the box, you know, when there was a box, televisions, which had antennas there, they were there.

Speaker 1

And why, according to your version, did the war in Ukraine start?

Speaker 4

Because people have no fear of God. People have neither fear nor values.

Speaker 1

Such personal emotions after what happened regarding Russia, and that the Russian [army] went after churches, that they are striking cathedrals.

Speaker 4

Brothers and sister go astray and that's it. And so they, as they were brothers and sisters, so they live. It will stay that way. And those, these are all people, razdrakons. It is written there, protokon siosvit-madrectsviv. Fine in project Rostok. To make a family of debauchery, discord, and the like. Ukraine in general is like a testing ground for America. A testing ground, here they also make wars. America does all this, first and foremost.

Speaker 4

War and the same, as it were, from what I am talking about. They are testing their technologies on us. Which passport? Paper, plastic. Plastic doesn't work? Which passport for you? Plastic. That's it, you're already in the claws, it's already all over. And wiretapping everywhere, wiretapping in everyone's phones. And this, what they say, that is even the point, not the phones. You

Speaker 1

Do you think all Ukrainians are being listened to? And are you a local? And did you come to Pochaiv specifically today?

Speaker 15

He brought the people by bus.

Speaker 1

Oh, aren't you going alone?

Speaker 15

No, I walked past, looked, but so what.

Speaker 1

Ruska,

Speaker 15

Lutsk. Ukraine must be all Ukrainian, children are perishing.

Speaker 1

And what church is this, in your opinion?

Speaker 15

Moscow, which, as everyone knows, is the Moscow church.

Speaker 1

And when you went inside today, did you feel what the difference is between the OCU and the UOC?

Speaker 15

In one language. I'm at least transporting people, because I transported them, I'm transporting people. And the mood in the bus is completely different now, you travel feeling so depressed. There is no, there is no Ukrainian spirit in them.

Speaker 1

Didn't you feel it on the bus? No.

Speaker 15

I think that over time it should be for the better. The children will settle down.

Speaker 1

What is her name?

Speaker 15

Ivan. My son also went missing. August 8, year.

Speaker 1

Do you go to the Lavra?

Speaker 15

Very rarely.

Speaker 1

Aha, so you're generally in favor of that,

Speaker 1

Were relations with the ROC severed, or are there no such relations?

Speaker 16

It's not clear here, you understand. Both are there, I saw that things are being done unclearly here.

Speaker 1

And what if the Orthodox Church of Ukraine, Epiphanius, comes?

Speaker 16

I think that people here are mostly traveling for Epiphany. I think so.

Speaker 1

More tea with epiphany?

Speaker 16

Yes. Now fewer people go to the Lavra.

Speaker 1

And is it because it's the ROC?

Speaker 16

Maybe so. Such a trend has been going on here for a long time.

Speaker 1

So people want her to actually cross?

Speaker 16

We see that it is.

Speaker 1

Are you in favor of her switching?

Speaker 16

There will be a Ukrainian church. To be unified. Is this possible or not?

Speaker 6

This is the classic Lavra before the Moscow Patriarchate put a monument to itself there. New cathedral. New cathedral. This is our gallery about the third, I say, previous one. We

Speaker 1

They visited the Ternopil Eparchy of the Orthodox Church of Ukraine, which in March '23 created a parallel religious organization. Pochaiv Holy Dormition Lavra of the Ternopil Eparchy of the OCU. And appointed Metropolitan Nestor of Ternopil and Kremenets as the rector of the Lavra from the OCU. He was asked whether he sees real prospects in resolving the issue of the lavras.

Speaker 2

We saw each other three years ago.

Speaker 1

Can it be said that nothing significant has changed in the situation with the Pochaiv Lavra and the critical situation has not shifted?

Speaker 6

Well, we cannot say that absolutely nothing has changed, but there are no truly effective changes. The Moscow Petrigrad will fight to the end, and they will defend all the villages. Whoever owns the Pochaiv Lavra owns the entire west of Ukraine. And we see that it is not for nothing throughout history. The Pochaiv Lavra was wanted in its time, and it was owned for 110 years, and then the Moscow Patrigrad took it back and made sure that there was no Ukrainian spirit there, constantly transferring Ukrainian monks to other monasteries—those who wanted it to be Ukrainian. Let us recall Metropolitan Yakiv Panchuk, who, while being the superior of the Pochaiv Lavra, was such a Ukrainian, and under him this Ukrainian spirit rose, and how he was beaten, evicted, and thrown out of the Pochaiv Lavra.

Speaker 1

So, do you expect something, or not really, from that directive of the state service on the issue of, say, the policy of freedom of conscience, because there, as if the court process is supposed to halt their activity, will there be a requirement?

Speaker 6

Yes, but then again, I think that in the courts pokony will be blocked, at some level of our judicial system,

Speaker 6

There will be some decision somewhere; it will be either canceled, returned, or blocked somewhere, and thus, I don't see any major shifts in the near future, specifically from a practical point of view, such that some real processes will occur. That is, until either political will changes or something in our judicial system changes, then none will be blocked here.

Speaker 1

Can you tell me why you can't? Well, and by the way, isn't this too short?

Speaker 4

The poor bend must be.

Speaker 1

Well, it's the lower bend.

Speaker 4

Well, thank God. The 62nd rule of the Chalcedonian council states, under a curse shall be anyone who wears the clothing of the opposite gender, that person is excommunicated from the church, therefore anathema, and there is a bunch of other stuff. And, first of all, whether to meet or not meet. In Rus, women wore their hair, they did not cut it higher than the elbow.

Speaker 1

Up to the elbow. Down to the tailbone. Woman

Speaker 4

takes energy from the cosmos. The word cosmos is a crooked word. And she takes energy from the cosmos and from the earth. A skirt, in the form of a cone. And in the form so that this skirt is floor-length. Very much this, so that this lowering is to the lower knee.

Speaker 1

floor. And why is it crucial to be in the floor, and this way is not very good? Because in the floor, here to

Speaker 4

See, it walks around and collects this energy from the ground.

Speaker 1

What, am I gathering energy? Does she gather energy? Well, yes. And the sneakers are improper.

Speaker 4

It is already losing this energy. If it were completely solid, it would be a given.